Harley-Davidson: Love 'em or Hate 'em??

From: West C. Jacobs III "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

Without the bike in my hand I'm not sure what you have done to the bike etc... on some (quite a few) I had problems with the CPK Crank Position Sensor being the problem. Then there was the ECM issue on some. Or it could be a hole in the fuel line inside of tank. Most of the areas above happen at most any speed. Do you have custom spark wires? The metal ones. Have you checked the spark plugs see how they are burning? Is the fuel pressure 55-60 psi? have you checked the injectors and the wires they have been known to break and cause problems like you have. Are there any engine codes? Are you running an after market power commander they have been known to break down. I am assuming your bike is an EFI. If it's a carbureted bike then you need to be looking at the float and needles and the fuel line between the engines. As you can see there are a list of things to be looking at. The Cam chain adjusters put pressure on the chains if they are bad you will be hearing a unusual noise coming from the cover any good tech will hear it. As to it being the problem of the engine starvation I'll say no.

From: West C. Jacobs III "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

Cam Chains

From: Gabor Zolna [gzolna@me.com]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

Tony, you were fortunate to get 61K out of a set of tensioners, they can let go from 4K to 80K. I might suggest that you have someone check your rear swing arm. Pre 02 FLH's have a hollow tube with a 3/4" axle that goes through the hollow tube. Check the washer at the axle. If it is not flat your swing arm is flexing. My swing arm cracked clear through about 1" in front of the axle on the left side. The 02 FLH's have re-designed swing arms to prevent the flexing which eventually results in metal fatigue. Fortunately the dealer noticed the craked swing arm otherwise I might not be here to send you this message.

I might suggest that you tell ALL of your buddies that ride pre-02 FLH's. Harley-Davidson knew that their swing arms on pre-02 FLH's were a real problem on high mileage bikes. want to bet riders died because their rear swing arm broke and the rider went down? Harley will not admit that their was a problem with their pre-02 FLH swing arms because that would open up a flood gate of lawsuits. When looking at the washer if it is at all concaved that is a clear indicator that your swing arm is flexing and it will be only a matter of time as it did on mine, it will crack clean through. Checking the swing arm for cracks is not a bad idea, especially if the washer is at all deformed. Also, if your front brake feels somewhat mushy, I might suggest that you remove the calipers and clean them with a high quality brake cleaner in a spray can. When you first remove the calipers with a 12 point socket as you press the brake lever you will notice that not all of the pistons are working. Keep pumping the lever and spray directly at the pistons. Eventually one side will break free. With a screw driver push the side of pads that broke free back by inserting the screw driver in between the pistons at the back of the brake pad. Force the pads that came out back in, keep pumping and the frozen side will break free as well. Insert a screwdriver in-between the pads to create sufficient space to re-install the caliper on the rotor. Do the same on the other side and once re-installed pump up your brake lever. Remove the left side first, the one furthest from the master cylinder, you won't believe the difference in both performance and brake life.

Gabe

Cam Chains

From: Gabor Zolna [gzolna@me.com]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

Gabe

From: "ken devries" [ken_devries@charter.net]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

My opinion. If there is a bind in there, yes. RPM's have nothing do with mph, 1st gear 4000rpms 25 mph, 4th gear 4000 rpm 70mph etc, just example. If the sprockets of the cam chain are worn and chain wear due to riding without it being adjusted properly and or oil level and or change intervals = premature wear. When there is wear it can cause binds, meaning stalling. Noises are a indication of wear or lube. You have to try things that narrow the problem down, does speed cause the problem or does rev's cause the problem? It could even be the drive train, it could even be the electronic ignition. Unless I ride it and can feel and hear it, its hard to narrow it down. Need more specifics.

[/Ken_D] permanent link

From: "ken devries" [ken_devries@charter.net]
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009

From: Steven Shafit [Steve91326@yahoo.com]
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

If you're efi could be the pump if not could very well be a slight clog in the tank itself where the fuel feeds into the cutoff valve... If that gets clogged it can cause that just like a clogged tank sock in a car does. You might want to try cleaning out the tank itself. FYI you aren't the only one that has had this problem and if the tank is even slightly clogging it may be time to drain it and make sure it has clear and fast flow.

Regards,
Rev- Steve

[/Steve_S] permanent link

From: Steven Shafit [Steve91326@yahoo.com]
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

Regards,
Rev- Steve

From: darn pin [darnpin@hotmail.com]
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

hey guys, id suggest you replace the crank position sensor. those go intermitant. its a cheap sensor and a quik fix , ive pushed my bike home a few times before i got mine replaced ... you should be able to see the error code on the dash lights if you now how to find it

darren

[/Darren_P] permanent link

From: darn pin [darnpin@hotmail.com]
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

darren

Tue, 24 Mar 2009

From: hogtdavis@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

I must ride a freak of a Harley. I have 61K on my 01 Elektera Glide and I finally have to address the cam chain problem for the first time. On a different note. Can the Cam Chain Tension problem cause the bike to totally cut off (as in like it runs out of gas) at very high RPM like 90 mph? I have spoken to several HD techs and 1 said yes but the others said no. The explanation he gave me made sense but I'd like another opinion.

FYI, just changed fuel filter and Spark plugs but that did not help at all.

Thanks,
Tony Davis

[/questions] permanent link

From: hogtdavis@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009

FYI, just changed fuel filter and Spark plugs but that did not help at all.

Thanks,
Tony Davis

RE: Cam Chain Tensioners

Harley Reliability

From: "Dennis L. Delap" [ddelap@wi.rr.com]
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009

Do you see a common thread in some of these complaints on the reliability of Harleys? It's modifications and service done improperly! I just purchased a new 2008 FXSTC anniversary model. The last new bike I bought was a FXRS in 1988. I drove the hell out of that machine, had it cammed up, heads modified, and converted to AMSOIL synthetic in engine, trans, and primary at 10,000 miles. I paid 8,000 dollars for that bike new. I just sold it exactly 20 years later for 9,000 dollars and went and bought my new Softail. I changed the engine oil religously at every 5,000 miles. I NEVER spent dollar one on repairs or had ANY problems whatsoever with that bike! I had 5 new rear tires, 2 new front tires, and one new battery on the machine in 20 YEARS!! So, if anyone can come up with a record like that on a piece of jap crap, I'd like to hear it. I probably never will as I'm 64 years old and have never heard of a rice grinder that could come anywhere close to the reliability of this bike. I know the first thing some dipshit is going to say is that I hardly rode the bike, well, how does 144,648 miles sound for reliability? That bike was all over the country and Mexico. Incidentally, I sold that bike with the ORIGINAL rear drive belt on it, beat that rice-bomb fans!! Also, try getting more than you paid for that jap shit 5 years later, let alone 20!! There, I'm just venting too and I hope I've set the record straight, maintain 'em properly and ride the hell out of 'em and they'll treat you right!!

Dennis D.

[/Dennis_D] permanent link

Tue, 24 Feb 2009

From: West C Jacobs III, "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009

Gabe,

Received your E-mail this morning thanks,

The whole premise of the article was to inform H-D riders that there could be a potential problem around the 20k time frame and that it was important to have the tensioners checked. Normally a technician can hear when the tensioners are bad.

To say oil has very little to do with wearing out anything (tensioners) needs to be addressed. Anytime a lubricating product is contaminated it produces wear and that is what contributes to the tensioners wearing out. As you alluded in your letter the products are man and machine made (any other way to make em?) and need quality control to inspect them prior to using them. We all know that inferior products will be made, and in the end it will get to the consumer and then it becomes a crisis. I'm sure there will be a number of engine problems that have not come to light yet because of those tensioners. As to the oil there are many brands and for every motor head out there the brand that they use is always the best. I do agree with you on H-D oil in that it is an outside contractor providing Harley with something they feel comfortable with and for the most part it does well. I have always used AMSOIL since I met Colonel Al Amatuzio in Milwaukee in the '70's. Yea, he was Air Force and flew the jets and I was the technician working on them we used synthetics back then too. Al, is the founder of Amsoil. I cannot think of any other oil I would even consider using.period. As an H-D technician I cannot tell you or your audience how many riders don't have their engine oils changed regularly. I have seen the inside of those engines; lubrication in an air-cooled engine of any sort is the life blood of that engine. So no matter what oil you prefer change it and the filter regularly and more frequently under extreme conditions.

Alignment of the cam chain is important, it is for the alignment of the chain between the crank and cam sprocket faces and they need to be parallel to each other. The variances to the tensioners are important, but there is no alignment they are preset to their attachment point. This is not the reason they wear out. You made a comment on the gear drive cams a good alternative to the H-D units, yes!

I have no knowledge of how you ride or maintain your H-D, to say you got a lemon, I don't know, they are out there as with all man made products. Seems you had a string of bad luck, poor maintenance, or parts or a combination of all. I hope you eventually have a running H-D.

Also don't begrudge the Service Writer or Manager there are many out there that know and understand the workings of H-D's

I try to look at the whole picture, and if I see a problem be proactive and see what can be done. As you can see outside of H-D there are companies with numerous upgrades, performance parts, and accessories to H-D's that people have come up with to "improve" the V-twin experience. Some work others well ...

Again I just wanted people to understand that there is a possible issue at around 20k and their engine Cam Tensioners.

West

RE: Cam Chain Tensioners

From: West C Jacobs III, "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009

Gabe,

Received your E-mail this morning thanks,

Also don't begrudge the Service Writer or Manager there are many out there that know and understand the workings of H-D's

Again I just wanted people to understand that there is a possible issue at around 20k and their engine Cam Tensioners.

West

From: "Gabor Zolna" [gzolna@me.com]
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009

Wess, I read your article and just wanted to put in my two cents worth. Changing your oil more frequently has little if anything to do with preventing the tensioners from wearing out. I am and have always been an oil freak using Mobile One V Twin 20-50 not Harley's so called Syn 3 which is a blend and not a pure synthetic. If you review my messages on Clayton's site you will see that I have gone through ten upper ends, two bottom ends, two transmissions, two swing arms on my 00 RK, three stators, two starters and the list goes on and on and on. The tensioners not breaking are a matter of luck and many of them do break and those that do break do so because they were not aligned perfectly at the factory. The twin cams are made by machines and as you know tolerances wear as machines do their jobs. The best way to ensure that your tensioners won't break is to have them inspected by a qualified mechanic at around 20K, my tensioners blew at 18K on my second last build. I replaced them with a set of 510 cams and S&S gear drive, a little noisy but worth doing to ensure reliability. If you ask any shop foreman at a HD dealer, not a service writer but the shop foreman they will tell you that the weak link in the twin cams is the tensioners, what else do we need to know other than that!

Gabe

From: "Gabor Zolna" [gzolna@me.com]
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009

Gabe

Harley Cam Chain Shoe Tensioner 20k Service

Sun, 22 Feb 2009

From: West C. Jacobs III "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009

Hello to all,

My background is that I have been riding HD's since the 60's and have a mechanical and technical background from the time my grandfather put a wrench in my hand working on AMC's. I have been a technician in the USAF working on B-52's, KC-135's, C-9's, C-141's, and a host of others. I was also an instructor at the USAF Academy's Parachute Team for many years. Attention to detail was important then as it is now.

After retiring from the USAF I worked at an H-D dealership in Colorado as a Service Writer / Manager of the Technicians. Later moving back to Wisconsin I again worked as a Service Writer and later wanted to get back into wrenching, which I did. I have been through numerous H-D schools and have been an "H-D" technician for a number of years.

Ok enough of that.

What I am going to inform you about if you don't know already is you need to have your Cam Chain Tensioner's looked at in around the 20k time frame. The shoes may become worn to a point that they will actually fall apart and pieces end up in the engine and could possibly ruin it. An important procedure to help alleviate the problem is to change that engine oil often and keep it clean!

If you do have to change out the Shoes, you can upgrade to a new Cam, to make your engine work more efficiently. Also you can just cut the pushrods verses removing the top end and install adjustable rods. That will save some time and money.

Attached are a couple of photos that I took of what can happen.

Knowledge can be good.

West

Harley Cam Chain Shoe Tensioner 20k Service

From: West C. Jacobs III "Chutie" [Chutie@wi.rr.com]
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009

Hello to all,

Ok enough of that.

Attached are a couple of photos that I took of what can happen.

Knowledge can be good.

West

[/tech/cam-chain] permanent link

Cam Chain

[/tech/cam-chain] permanent link

Harley riding experience - 1972 XLCH (ironhead sporty)

From: rich lovelien [richlo65@hotmail.com]
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008

What motorcycle riding is all about to me:

My bike: 1972 XLCH (ironhead sporty), hardtail chopper, kickstart only, 45* rake at neckWhat is riding all about to me?-raked out chopper - turns heads, easy to pick up ladys-unbaffled drag pipes - saves lives, and fun.-kickstart only- turn any girl on when they see you kick a bike and it comes to life.-harley engine - shaky, vibraty solid mounted engine will get any girl wet within 15mins of riding if you have the right passenger seat for this ;)-forword controls - like sitting in a giant lazboy going down the road.-45*rake at frame and none at tree - anything above 25mph the steering as unbelievably stable, above 55 I can ride for HOURS withuot touching the bars except to adjust speed. lazyboy comes to mind again.-hardtail - makes the ladys tits bounce up and down giving me a world class upper back/ neck massage.-pullback bars - get closer to the ol lady of course.-old harley - cheap, easy to fix on the side of the road if needed. and once you have owned an old harley I can guarentee you will appreciate any newer harley you will own in the future, lol. Im greatful to even have a Harley, not to mension my dream bike is now finished!Im 21 years old and I started building this bike with this list on paper three years ago and with my own two hands I finished it this past spring. now that the first season of riding my bike is done I couldnt be happier with the results (except that I am already walking with a limp from the kicker, lol)I know exactly what has gone into this bike because I have done it (bought as basket case, then rebuilt the motor/tranny, and cut/chopped/welded everything to the point that its at right now) and I know what can go wrong so I carry everything I would ever need in my front tool pouch for a side of the road fix. I have taken two 1-week vacations from work this year and I just get on the bike and literally go where the road takes me, if i want to go curvy roads I take curvy roads, if I feel the urge to go south I go south. with nothing more then a sleeping bag, my tools, a couple sets of cloths and the freedom of the open road to take me there.what is riding all about to you and what have you done to get there? before this bike, I have had cheap ($50-$200) motorcycles ever since I was 14 years old just to feel the wind in my hair and I have friends that have cheap yamahas, suzukis, and hondas that own them just to be on the road.

If you think Harleys are just an unreliable mode of transportation that looks good in your garage then you have no right having the priviledge of owning one. A ride on a Harley should be enjoyed and appreciated everytime you throw your leg over it. A harley (or an OLD Triumph or Norton also has the same effect on you when you ride one) is the ultimate experience that people should work up to owning and prove they are worthy of it instead of just handing over cash.

Rich

[/Rich_L] permanent link

Sun, 28 Dec 2008

Re: My HD experience.

From: "ken devries" [ken_devries@charter.net]
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008

The initial problem most likely was a leak of some kind. Then running the engine not knowing of an oil leak caused premature wear on engine parts, post likely piston and valves = smoke and loss of oil "burnt". Did the oil check light ever come on, it should have? Also it seemed the problems came to be when you had the upgrade kit INSTALLED BY HARLEY = their fault.

[/David_C] permanent link

Re: My HD experience.

From: "ken devries" [ken_devries@charter.net]
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008

[/Ken_D] permanent link

Hello David!

From: Gabor Zolna [gzolna@me.com]
Date: December 25, 2008

I read your story and I understand your frustration more than most! If you search Clayton's site you will be able to read many of my postings about my experience with two HD Road King Classics! I have had five upper ends per bike. Two transmissions, two swing arms and many additional mechanical problems as I posted on Clayton's site. There are many problems that customers experience the first believing that when purchasing a Harley that they are buying American. Ever wonder why you need metric as well as standard tools when working on a Harley? The front end is Japanese! Harley mechanics get paid by the job so if the book says five hours and they rush the job and get it done in three hours they get paid and you get charged for five hours. In a large dealership over a year that can and does add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars to the dealership and tens of thousands of dollars to the mechanics. The only one that looses is the customer. Not only because they got &@&$ on the bill but they also got ?&)($& on the labour. Work on Harley's simply can't be rushed and when the work is rushed it will soon have to be done again. Harley purchased MV Agusta because they know that EPA will force them to go to water cooled motors in their FLH bikes and when they do that they won't be competitive with German or Japanese bikes. The old core HD riders that I know would never purchase a water cooled FLH and Harkey knows that as well. I might suggest that you talk to a lawyer and ask him to look into the Beverly Dong Act. As you know there is no Lemon Law on motorcycles, but Harkey gave me a new bike in 2000 and they took my 1998 Road King lemon back in trade! Check out what I posted on Clayton's site it might help you get some compensation for your bad HD experience! Gabe. PS. Merry Christmas!

[/David_C] permanent link

Hello David!

From: Gabor Zolna [gzolna@me.com]
Date: December 25, 2008

My HD experience - 2007 Sportster

Thu, 25 Dec 2008

From: David Crist [davidzapr@yahoo.com]
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008

Hi. I found your webpage today and wanted to relate what happened to me. I bought a new 2007 HD 883 sportster(the standard model). After riding it for around 4 months, I really wanted more power. As I was told when I bought it, there is a HD factory 1200 kit, and that was installed by an HD dealer(I already had HD SE mufflers on the bike). I was also told that the HD warranty would continue on the bike as it was all factory. What I am going to show you here is the letter I sent to HD after the bike had been gone for 4 months in a 8 month period. I did post this letter onto a few HD specific sites on the web in the hopes of warning other folks what can, and indeed did happen to me. In those posts I said that YMMV, obviously this does not happen to all people, sorry if I ruffled some feathers by posting, etc. Obviously some folks called this a 'troll' and that the entire episode was either fabricated by me, mishandled by me(could be that one, I have never had to deal with this before with any vehicle, so how am I supposed to know the 'correct' things to do), etc. In any event it happened as the letter I sent to HD states, and is entirely accurate. I just wanted you to know what I had done up to now, so that if you choose to post this story, you are not surprised(and I do hope you will share this). Here is the letter:

Harley Davidson Customer Service
3700 W. Juneau Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53208
414-343-4056

To whom it may concern,

I am writing this letter in reference to 2007 883 Sportster VIN: 1HD4CN2137K423311 which is in your database for problems related to a factory conversion to 1200 spec. I want to tell your company about the complete lack of concern for the problem that this bike has had since it's conversion in late March. As your records show, I brought this bike into Barnett HD in Las Cruces New Mexico in late March of 2008 for a factory 883 to 1200 conversion using the HD complete conversion kit(the bike already had SE SP mufflers on it). The bike was done in around 4 days and I picked it up a week later. Upon first starting it at the dealership, it poured smoke, and I thought it was just the lube from assembly, so I went on my way for a trip to Roswell NM a few hours away. After being on the road for an hour or so, I saw lots of oil coming from the rear head onto the outside of the rear pipe and the oil tank. As I was near Roswell, I went into the HD dealer there. They thought it was a pinched rocker cover gasket, and I paid them to replace it, as I thought this was just a little problem. I went to my hotel in Roswell, and the bike was not operated for 2 days. When I started it 2 days later, it poured smoke(white, choking smoke), and the rear rocker cover again was leaking a lot of oil, so I rode it to the HD dealer where the work was done(Las Cruces) and even thought it was a Sunday, they replaced the rear rocker cover gasket, test rode it, and saw it leaking again. This started the hell with this conversion. That bike stayed at that dealer for 2 months, got a new set of chrome rocker covers(which DID fix the rocker cover leak for good) and a new rear head which was supposed to fix the smoke issue. It did not, after sitting for 3 days it again poured smoke when started, and the dealer picked up the bike to fix it, and it came back a week later. I was instructed to ride it and let it break in, and then see if the problem had gone away. At this time I started a log (copies included) to make sure what was going on with the oil issue. The first check of how much oil it used(as an 883 it NEVER used any oil), showed 767mi per quart, and as this was just a prelim measurement I decided to change the oil for new HD regular(not Syn3) oil, new filter, ride the bike after changing to get all the bubbles out, then put the oil level at the middle of the oil dip stick(I put a hash mark on it) so that it was not over full and blowing oil out the breathers. I ALWAYS measured the oil in my driveway after the bike was fully warm, ALWAYS put in a little oil, rode a few miles, etc. until it was back at the hash mark again...very consistent measuring, and I used a graduated beaker to measure the oil going in. The bike NEVER leaked oil, and I constantly checked for any leaks. Also, after sitting for a few days, it still smoked a lot, and had bursts of smoke at around 3500rpm. All this after the bike was gone for over 2 months, was in the shop 3 times including the initial conversion, and I had called your company to see what could be done. I next contacted Barnett HD in Las Cruces NM on 8-22-2008, and said I was going to drop it off on 9-27-2008 for a month while I was on vacation for them to finally fix the smoke issue and fix the bike to factory spec(less than 1 quart of oil usage per 1,000mi riding). I also had them re-gear the primary drive to 1200 spec(it already had a 30 tooth countershaft sprocket). When I called the dealer on 10-24-2008 at 0910hrs I was told the almost incredible news: 1. The bike was ready, 2. there was no problem, and 3. I was to ride it and have THEM add oil to show there was nothing wrong with it(they did not believe me as to the oil issue, even though they had my mileage book, nice people). I arrived at 0900hrs 10-25-2008 to pick-up and ride the bike home(I live 55mi away), started it in their parking lot outside the service bay, and it poured white smoke. So I shut it off, went inside, brought out the service manager for that day, and started it again to 'prove' to him that it does indeed pour smoke. His comment?? 'That's obviously where the oil is going, from the front cylinder'. The bike had sat for a few weeks before I started it. I left the bike, called your company to discuss what was going on here(total time the bike had been gone in the last 71/2 months: 3 months 21/2 weeks!). I was called back by YOUR people, who said that the dealer had it well in hand. I was called by the dealer on 11-14-2008 and told that they had 'torn down the rear cylinder, and re-aligned the oil control ring'. He also stated that in riding it around 50mi total, a few miles every day, it did not smoke and that the smoke I saw was the enrichment from the FI when the bike was cold. Well...as I observed and told your company (I called you guys again on 11-14-2008 to say that the bike really needed to go back to the factory to be looked at, or SOMEWHERE to be fixed, a really nice lady said that I could take it somewhere, but that YOU would not be helping me...really nice for a bike under warranty), riding it everyday does not produce much smoke...letting it SIT for a few days produces lots. The oil control ring being the problem is pure rubbish! If the bike is smoking after sitting for 3 days or so, and smoking a lot, then the oil HAS to be dripping down into the chamber -- I.E. from leaking seals, or guides, or somewhere ABOVE the chamber....last I looked, oil cannot travel UP against gravity through this oil control ring, flood the chamber, and produce smoke. I picked the bike up as it was now up to 'factory' spec per Las Cruces HD, rode it to Barnett El Paso HD, and sold it to the dealer there(owned by the same company) for the rousing sum of $4000. The bike smoked when revved around 3500rpm as it always had, and when the sales manager rode the bike around to the service bay, he goosed it in the lower gears, and guess what? A BIG puff of white smoke from this 'in spec' bike. This bike spend FOUR months out of the eight since it's conversion in YOUR dealers service bay. You did NOTHING to help with this, they did NOTHING to fix it, and I assume if you answer this letter you will blame the whole thing on me. By the way, I did check the New Mexico lemon laws, and because the bike was 'Modified'(the 1200 conversion) I had no remedy under the law. Allowed your company to weasel out of fixing the issue. Nice. Well this is what I am going to do: I am sending this letter via FedEx so you can't say you never got it, I will wait 2 weeks for a letter from you(good luck with that...unless it's a 'you should of...etc. letter), then I am going to post this letter everywhere on the internet that I can, blogs, etc. My friend all ride, three of them are getting new bikes this Christmas, NONE of them are buying HD because of this. And since I am out of a bike, I am not riding anymore, and I hope to tell everyone who will listen about this. So it looks like we both lose. And I wanted to spend my money with an AMERICAN company.

Sincerely,
David J. xxxxx

The forgoing letter is exactly as sent, except for the 'x' in places(again, a few have said I left out much of the story, or made it up). I WAS asked an intelligent question: why did I sell it to the same company that made so much grief for me? Well, in a word, conscience. The dealer stated the bike was within spec, and I did NOT want to sell it to someone in that condition. Obviously I do NOT think it is within spec(indeed there are internal HD memos floating on the net saying the mo-co is supposed to fix any sporty that is using more than 1qt of oil in 1,000mi, plus the smoking issue). I did not, and indeed do not think there is anyone out there who would fix it, and HD stated that if I had anyone other than them try to fix it, they would void the warranty(not that it was anything good, as stated above). I wanted at least some money back from the bike rather than a doorstop, and all I was doing was putting good money after bad if I went this alone. Anyway, everyone has there own opinion, but I did not make up any of this, or damage this bike in any fashion. Thanks for looking at my letter and story, and I do hope you will post it. Please contact me if you need any other info, etc.

David Crist
Deming, NM

[/David_C] permanent link

Sat, 13 Dec 2008

Re: Update on the 2007 110" Ultra POS

From: Richard King [rpking@pacbell.net]
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008

Thanks Clayton, I appreciate how much work it is to keep a site like yours up-to-date.

The latest with my bike is actually good news for now. The good, albeit slow, El Cajon Harley came through ultimately. And they did it with an excellent attitude. I have a new full-floating rear rotor, new rear caliper, new rear master cylinder, new (from the factory this time) motor with matching serial numbers, and a new oil cooler. As for the oil temp sensor, they ended up installing an adapter directly into the engine, so now I get real-time engine temp readings instead of the way it comes in the kit where it only starts moving the guage after the oil cooler thermostat opens. Very nice. Still, the bike was down for almost three months total.

They comped my 500-mile oil change too. I highly recommend El Cajon Harley Davidson for their great service department. As for the bad guys, Biggs in San Marcos, we're meeting in court in January - if they're still in business. I hear they're stocking even fewer and fewer parts, so I hope that's a sign that they're about done. The last time I went there, they threatened to call the Sheriff on me and threw me out. Guess they didn't want to talk about my service issues. I'll tell you how the Small Claims suit comes out after it's done. Don't want to give away anything in case they actually do have someone there who can read.

Thanks again for all your help,
Rich

[/Richard_K] permanent link

Thu, 11 Dec 2008

Re: 09 piece of crap

From: jtstahl@cox.net Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008

I'm responding to Ken Devries comment on the Phil's 09 Harley comment. Ken must have a great Harley Dealer where he lives, as the one here in Oklahoma City, along with many other dealers that I know of, "Do Not" offer test rides on their new bikes that a customer may want to purchase. They may have some older clunker for you to ride, but you won't get to ride anything on the showroom floor, unless you purchase it first. Thats one of the biggest problems with buying a new motorcycle, not only from Harley, but most other new motorcycle dealers.

As for Phil's complaint on his 09 Harley, I think it's a shame that Harley will not address any of Phil's concerns on his 09 Harley. As I've said before, the product is only as good as the service, when needed, and the full support of the manufacturer. when questions or problems are put forth to them. It should not matter whether you work for them or not, a customer is a customer, and should be treated as such. I've also worked in a manufacturing plant, though not motorcycles, and have learned that once the manufactured item is designed, built, and shipped, the last thing the manufacturer wants to do is to improve or correct problems with their items. Mostly because it may cost them money to do so. They don't understand or just don't care, that they are adversely affecting their merchandise sales, present and future, over a few bucks, not to mention customer satisfaction.

I own an 04 Sportster custom and had thoughts of trading up to a newer Harley model, but now after reading of dealer's and Harley themselves treating customers with little or no interest in problem's that arise, I think I'll keep what I have for now, or until Harley and their dealers change their way of doing business. Especially when the economy is in such a rut, you would figure the last thing a manufacturer or dealer would want to do is piss off potential customers. Not too smart.

[/Jtstahl] permanent link

HARLEY-DAVIDSON IS RECALLING 2009 FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, AND FXDL

HARLEY-DAVIDSON IS RECALLING 349 MY 2009 FXDB, FXDC, FXDF, AND FXDL MOTORCYCLES. THESE MOTORCYCLES HAVE A FUEL TANK VENT TUBE ASSEMBLY, PART NO. 27389-04A, WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN PRODUCED WITH A DEFECTIVE ULTRASONIC WELD ON THE ANTI-SLOSH VALVE.

IF THE VALVE SEPARATES AND THE BIKE IS TIPPED OVER, IT MAY LEAK FUEL. FUEL LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.

DEALERS WILL INSPECT THE FUEL VENT TUBE ASSEMBLY AND, IF NECESSARY, REPLACE IT. THE RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR ABOUT DECEMBER 8, 2008. OWNERS MAY CONTACT HARLEY-DAVIDSON AT 1-414-343-4056.

http://www.allworldauto.com/recalls/NHTSA_08V625000_2009_HARLEY_DAVIDSON_FXDF_recall_93652.html

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Update on the 2007 110" Ultra POS

From: Richard King [rpking@pacbell.net]
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008

Hello Clayton. Rich King here. Got back from a 4-week trip and was looking forward to riding the Harley once again. Of course, we both know it just wasn't going to be that easy, didn't we. Here's the latest for your web site.

Went to pick up the bike (2007 110" Ultra P.O.S.) Friday, October 24th. They've had it two and a half months. Three things to do:

1 - Replace Engine (flush all oil, passages, primary gaskets, etc.)
2 - Replace Oil Cooler
3 - Rear Brake calipers (4 sets of pads in 16,000 miles - something's wrong)

Pam and I went down to personally meet the head service writer before we left. Wanted to let him know I was going to be gone and wanted to meet him in person since I had only talked to him on the phone. When we were down there, I again reiterrated those three things. They were on the work order written by the other service writer, when I first brought the bike in. I also called from Italy last week to see if the bike was done. Gracie said it was all done. I mentioned the three items again and she said "yes, according to the ticket, it's all done."

So you might imagine how ever so slightly pissed I was this morning after asking to talk to the mechanic who worked on the bike to explain to me what he had found wrong with the brakes (in case I needed to keep an eye on something in the future). His answer: "what brake problem? - guess I missed that on the work order."

We talked about this on our cross-country trip in regards to the fact that nobody seems to want to do anything right anymore. Anyway, they wanted me to leave it - for a couple more weeks while they ordered the parts (remember, they've had it 2 1/2 months already). So the service manager comes out of his meeting early and starts apologizing, etc. They decide to swap a master cylinder and rear caliper from a 2008 bike. 45 minutes later, I get the bike with a new master cylinder, but no new rear caliper - the 2008 version apparently isn't a match.

So now when I go back for the third 500-miles oil change, they're supposed to replace the calipers and the rotor (with a floating rotor). They said they'd comp the oil change, but Biggs said that before (after the 110" kit was installed) and charged me anyway.

But wait, there's more. My oil temp sensor doesn't work at all now. I had put new ends on the wires and double-nutting them onto the guage. So why doesn't it work now? They lost the adapter that the sending unit screws into -- the one I bought to get rid of all those funky hose adapters I originally had to use because the hardley parts didn't match the size of their oil lines. And get this, the mechanic who supposedly did all the work says he knows what the part is that he needs to finish the job. Yeah, you knew it but yet you didn't order it, install it, finish the job because???????? My oil temp sensor is hanging between the oil lines, zip-tied and doing absolutely nothing. I don't get how they could know that and still tell me my bike was done.

This is supposed to be the good shop. I have confidence they'll "eventually" do everything, but WTF - they had it 2 1/2 months. The rubber cover on my shifter is missing too - it's the little things.

I swear this bike is cursed,
Rich

I took a few pictures of the workshop at biggs to add to my documentation for the small claims case I'm filing against them for not doing the warranty work on my bike when it needed new head gaskets. I'm a writer, so documentation is in my blood. Apparently pissed them off. Said they couldn't change my head gaskets in the week I had before my 7,500-mile trip back in July. Bob's garage did it in three days.

Service managers Kirby and John threatened to call the sheriff if I didn't leave. Lots of threatening verbage and single-fingered gestures from their side. Guess that talk with hardley and the hardley rep had the effect I thought it would. No remorse for screwing me whatsoever.

Will be seeing them in court with a lot of documentation. Hope they can read. Will have fun adding this to all the posts I have on the internet already "Customer thrown off the lot because he actually keeps records of his mistreatment." Can't wait to post this.

Talked with Bob at Bob's Garage. He said after the initial warranty runs out, he can perform the extended warranty work. Even the supposedly good shop in El Cajon missed a couple things, so why go back to a dealer if I don't need to.

Thanks again,
Rich King

[/Richard_K] permanent link

Thu, 06 Nov 2008

From: Steven Shafit [Steve91326@yahoo.com]
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008

The new composite that they are using for Harley brake pads is more metallic than the old. I've heard that they are coming out with what is called an anti rattle pad. It's a thin membrane that is put between the pad and the piston to stop that kind of noise... Until they do we have to live with the sound. It doesn't hurt anything and it lets you know you have the longer lasting pads.

[/Jimmy_B] permanent link

From: Steven Shafit [Steve91326@yahoo.com]
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008

[/Steve_S] permanent link

From: "ken devries" [ken_devries@charter.net]
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008

My 2 cents. Ok weight impacts the problem. My thoughts, rear axle, seals, bearings or even suspension, as all of this things are impacted by weight. With the extra weight it seems the tire goes side to side impacting the braking/ pressure. It could even have something to do with the caliber. Any more specifics would help narrowing it down.

[/Jimmy_B] permanent link